Chuck Todd speaks with legendary documentary filmmaker Alex Gibney about his newest project The Dark Money Game on HBO and the influence of legalized bribery in American politics.

First, Chuck gives his own thoughts on the corrupting influence of money in politics, why Donald Trump’s memecoin is a bribery scheme in plain sight and why money has fueled distrust in politics from both sides of the aisle

Then, Chuck and Alex dive into the Ohio scandal at the center of The Dark Money Game, exploring why Americans have grown numb to the Citizens United ruling—and how it effectively legalized bribery in politics. They discuss how money has become a deeply corrosive force in American democracy.

Alex shares his process for selecting the story, what he uncovered during his investigation, and why the project ultimately became a two-part series.

The conversation also touches on the troubling alliance between organized religion and dark money, the Trump administration’s open embrace of corruption, and, finally, Alex reveals the focus of his next big project: Elon Musk.

Finally, Chuck answers a listener question in the Ask Chuck segment!

0:00 Introduction

1:00 Citizen's United created the dark money era

1:45 Reform efforts have failed

3:00 Campaigns used to cost millions, not billions

5:00 Money has cut voters out of the equation

9:00 Trump’s memecoin is a bribery scam in plain sight

10:30 We need strong disclosure laws

13:00 Public funding of elections is an all or nothing propositionv

14:30 Distrust in politics centers on money in the system

17:40 Alex Gibney joins the show!

18:40 Dark Money is the best attempt at telling the story of money corrupting politics

19:40 How hard is it to make this story accessible to the public?

20:40 Campaign finance should be rebranded as bribery

21:40 Ohio state legislature captured by special interests

24:10 Why did First Energy execs not end up in prison?

25:25 Huge money ensured GOP candidates in Ohio won, then were beholden

26:40 The bribe was a good investment

28:10 How did Alex access the wiretaps?

28:55 Investigators stumbled into the case

30:55 We've accepted money in politics and are numb to it

31:40 Citizens United opened the floodgates to corruption via PACs

33:40 Bribery is now legal

35:25 We're in a kleptocracy now

35:55 Reed Hoffman donated millions to Harris and wanted Lina Khan fired at FTC

37:40 Big money interests can just buy their own news coverage

40:10 Ohio whistleblower turned in his friend in service to his state

41:10 Florida gambling initiatives bought and sold petition signatures

42:40 Money in politics is like the mob bribing cops

45:10 Candidates don't run on an anti corruption/campaign finance platform

46:40 Billionaires shouldn't get define the world for the rest of us

47:55 Bernie/AOC turning out huge crowds tapping into anger against a rigged system

49:40 Dark money started as one film and became two because there was too much material 50:55 Evangelical grifters became fused with dark money in exchange for political influence 53:55 Corrupt Religious leaders "bless" political corruption to their followers

55:40 Society is driven by, and consumed by money

56:40 Law firms and universities have capitulated to Trump over their financial interests

59:10 Alex's advice for young documentarians

1:00:40 Lobbying is now corporation vs corporation

1:03:25 Elon Musk is Alex's next topic

1:04:25 Chuck's thoughts on conversation with Alex Gibney

1:05:25 Ask Chuck - How can voters in states with later primaries feel involved in choosing presidential candidates?

1:06:55 A rotating system for primaries based on region is a potential solution

1:09:55 There are ways to make the system fair, but the people in charge don't want a fair system.

1:12:55 Voters in early states take the process very seriously

As a bonus for Chuck ToddCast listeners, we’re sharing a special preview of Kamala: Next in Line, a six-part podcast from MSNBC and Wondery that goes inside the cross-cultural journey that led Senator Kamala Harris from her humble roots to become the first African-American woman to be the Vice Presidential nominee for a major party. From Oakland to Howard University, and California to Washington DC, experience her story as it has never been told before. Hosted by MSNBC's Joy Reid, the show features exclusive interviews with those who know her best, painting a picture of a woman who has fought her way to the top at every turn. Listen to the first episode, and subscribe to the series now: https://link.chtbl.com/description-kamala

Silvio Berlusconi was a charismatic multi-millionaire real-estate mogul who upended the Italian political order and hypnotized an entire nation. He was the longest-serving prime minister of one of the world’s wealthiest countries, until he was brought down by three powerful women - and two words: “Bunga Bunga.” From Wondery, the makers of Dirty John and The Shrink Next Door, and hosted by comedian Whitney Cummings, “Bunga Bunga” is an eight part series on the incredible true story of the rise and fall of Silvio Berlusconi, told with Whitney’s signature wit and style. 

Subscribe today: Wondery.fm/BungaBunga_NBCTC

Chuck begins by weighing in on a new Pew Research poll showing a significant drop in President Donald Trump’s approval rating since his inauguration. He highlights the erosion of support among non-voters as a potential warning sign for the president. Chuck also shares his concerns about the administration’s apparent deference to Russia in the latest Ukraine peace agreement.

Next, he’s joined by Jon Tester and Maritsa Georgiou to discuss their new podcast, the underrepresentation of middle America in the media, and why members of Congress should spend more time outside the Washington, D.C. bubble.

They explore the loss of trust in national media due to the decline of strong local journalism, Congress’s tendency to cede power to the executive branch, the corrupting influence of dark money in politics, and the urgent need for campaign finance reform.

The conversation wraps with a discussion about the TV show Yellowstone and its impact—both positive and negative—on their home state of Montana.

Finally, Chuck closes out the show by answering a few listener questions in the "Ask Chuck" segment.

Timeline:

0:00 Introduction

2:25 New Pew Research poll released on Trump’s first 100 days

3:45 Not surprising Trump’s approval has dropped

4:15 Non-voters souring on Trump quickly

6:15 Incompetency is defining his first 100 days

7:30 Erratic decision making doesn’t inspire confidence

9:15 Low information voters are a good barometer

10:15 Republican party still has a higher favorability ratings than the Democratic party

14:00 Trump is tarnishing the country’s reputation

16:15 Trump needs to make some trade deals and put points on the board

17:45 The United States government is taking Russia’s side against Ukraine

20:40 Jon Tester and Maritsa Georgiou join the show!

21:10 Why start a podcast?

23:10 Most rewarding part?

25:25 Need more voices in media from all over the country, not just the coasts

27:55 The state of local news in Montana

29:10 "The middle" is underrepresented in media

30:40 Where the media is located can warp the perspective

33:10 If Congress convened in places other than DC, things would be very different

34:10 Politicians pit urban vs rural against one another

34:55 Journalists are pulled to the big markets

36:40 Local media was a character reference for the national media

37:55 Without local reporters, important stories can't reach the national media

39:10 There are no more local reporters telling communities what DC is doing for them

41:25 Why has Congress been willing to cede power to the executive?

43:40 Congress has rolled over in the 21st century due to campaign finance

44:40 Dark money's influence on Montana politics

47:05 Money has skewed the system*

48:40 Local news stations run on two year budgets due to election spending

49:40 Campaign finance reform efforts always result in loopholes

50:40 Campaign finance isn't a voting issue

53:10 Media has to be an educator

54:55 Voters of both parties are worried about money in politics

55:55 Congress needs a NASCAR rule for disclosing donors

56:55 Why is fixing campaign finance so hard?

57:40 Candidates have limits, donors do not

58:40 Most members of Congress have good motivations individually, collectively they become irrational

1:00:20 Senator Lisa Murkowski's comments about fear of retaliation

1:02:40 Founders would be appalled by what's happening in DC

1:03:55 Media needs to listen and rebuild trust

1:04:40 The media needs to stand with the AP

1:05:30 Montana's star turn in pop culture due to Taylor Sheridan

1:07:40 What is Sen. Tester watching on TV?

1:10:20 Montana has been "discovered" by the wealthy

1:10:50 Chuck’s thoughts on the interview

1:11:25 Ask Chuck

1:11:55 If you were in charge of the DNC, what changes would you like to see improve their brand?

1:13:30 The Democrats haven’t tried to be a 50 state party, they need to go on a listening tour

1:17:25 If elections were held a week earlier in 1976 and 2016, would Ford and Clinton have won?

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Chuck Todd is joined by Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s Analytics, to discuss the damaging effects of President Donald Trump’s tariffs and trade war on the U.S. economy.

Chuck opens the episode by framing the nation’s economic struggles as entirely self-inflicted, warning against political pressure on the Federal Reserve, and explaining why the consequences of current policy decisions could take years to reverse.

Mark Zandi then joins to share his economic risk assessment, explore why markets failed to anticipate the trade war, and project the level of fallout the U.S. economy could face in the coming months and years.

They break down why Trump’s push to reshore American manufacturing is unlikely to succeed, how China could emerge as the real winner of the trade war, and why troubling signals from the bond market spell concern for the broader economy.

Zandi also outlines the risks of firing Fed Chair Jay Powell, explains why the trade war is a lose-lose scenario, and discusses why government intervention may be far less effective in responding to a self-inflicted economic crisis.

Finally, Chuck wraps up with listener questions in the Ask Chuck segment.

Don’t forget to like and subscribe to The Chuck ToddCast!

Timeline:

0:00 Introduction

0:30 Why Chuck wanted to have Mark Zandi on the show

1:30 We could have a man made economic disaster on our hands

3:00 Pressuring the fed to lower interest rates is a bad idea

5:15 Immigration has been a boon, not a negative for America

7:00 Trade has helped America have a higher standard of living than anywhere else

8:00 Rebuilding will take years

8:45 Trump administration has been a mess

11:55 Mark Zandi joins the show

12:55 What is Moody's Analytics?

15:55 How is a country's political system factored into economic risk assessments?

17:15 War gaming the trade war

19:10 Why didn't markets price in the trade war?

21:10 Tariffs in Trump 1.0 were more damaging than people realize due to pandemic.

22:55 When will the tariff impacts show up?

24:25 Are any companies reshoring manufacturing due to tariffs?

26:10 How many companies are going to do whatever it takes to get an exemption?

27:25 Consumers and corporations are already changing their spending decisions

28:25 Government cuts are self defeating

29:55 How will this affect China's economy?

32:55 Will the EU spurn the US in favor of China?

34:25 Nixing the TPP was a mistake

35:40 What does the health of the bond market tell us?

37:10 We're in a crisis

38:10 How does this affect financing our debt?

39:10 What would stabilize the market?

39:55 What would happen if he fired fed chair Jay Powell?

42:40 How similar is the current situation to the 1920's-30's?

45:25 US received more pushback from other countries in the 20's-30's

46:40 Which countries are most vulnerable to the trade war?

48:55 This is a lose-lose for everyone

49:55 In an emergency are the only choices inflation or recession? Which is preferable?

52:25 Government intervention will be less viable because government caused the crisis

53:25 Chuck’s thoughts on conversation with Mark Zandi

54:20 Ask Chuck - Will Trump’s trade war become the new normal or just a phase?

55:55 Tariffs are a tool, and shouldn’t be used for everything

57:30Trump’s goal is to replace income taxes with tariff revenue

59:55 How can citizens not be part of the problem when it comes to hyperpartisan media?

1:00:30 Diversifying your media diet is important

1:04:45 If tariffs cause a severe recession, could Trump issue an EO to postpone the midterm elections?

1:07:00 Trump can’t waive a magic wand and postpone elections

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Chuck Todd is joined by Benjamin Wittes, editor-in-chief of Lawfare, to break down the widespread legal violations committed by the Trump administration during Donald Trump’s first three months in office.

Chuck opens the episode by underscoring the gravity of the moment and why Trump appears to show little respect for the law or the authority of the courts.

Ben Wittes then joins the conversation to discuss the constitutional amendments the administration may have violated, whether Trump is defying Supreme Court rulings, and what a potential legal showdown over his immigration policies could look like.

They examine the administration’s targeting of law firms and universities, where institutional pressure could serve as a check on executive overreach, and whether lawsuits filed by state attorneys general stand a chance in court.

Finally, they unpack Trump’s use of executive orders against his critics, why the U.S. is losing its reputation as a global “beacon of freedom,” and Ben shares one reason he still holds onto a sense of optimism.

0:00 First 90 days of the Trump administration has been tumultuous

1:45 Congress is sitting on its hands

2:45 The administration is slowing down routine investigations

4:00 This is a dangerous moment for the country

5:30 Trump is “flooding the zone”

8:15 There are legal ways to handle deportations but Trump isn’t interested

9:30 They’ve violated amendments four through nine

11:30 Trump left Biden a legal quagmire over the border, but Biden didn’t handle it well

12:30 Prices will rise in the next 60-90 days

14:00 Incompetence has defined Trump’s administration thus far

15:00 Administration is trending toward monarchy

16:45 Lindsey Graham has gone radio silent

18:55 Benjamin Wittes joins the show!

21:10 Trump is violating multiple constitutional amendments

23:30 Is Trump violating the Supreme Court ruling?

25:55 Did the Supreme Court water down their ruling?

27:05 All 9 justices agreed on the premise

28:05 What would satisfy the court's order to "facilitate" the return of Abrego Garcia?

29:40 If Trump asked for the prisoner back, Bukele wouldn't say no

30:45 The White House is brazenly violating court orders

32:10 The administration is extorting law firms

36:45 How will Harvard's decision to fight back affect them?

38:35 Is the administration going out of their way to pick fights?

39:55 They're creating criminal impunity for allies

40:45 Administration is using civil litigation to target enemies

41:55 The government will pay more in damages than money saved by DOGE

45:00 John Roberts is issuing rulings meant to avoid confrontation with Trump

46:25 SCOTUS justices are aware Trump is flaunting their ruling

48:45 Trump is putting tremendous stress on his own party

49:25 Are Trump's actions uniting SCOTUS against him?

52:25 What to make of the three liberal justices putting out a press release?

54:55 How alarmed are the six conservative justices?

56:05 Expectations for California's tariff lawsuit?

58:55 The president has civil immunity from defamation lawsuits

1:01:15 Targeting Krebs and Taylor are two of the most egregious acts so far

1:05:25 Trump 2.0 is an entirely different proposition

1:06:55 What authoritarian model does Trump most emulate?

1:07:55 Ben projected "Trump and Vance betrayed the country" on the Washington monument

1:10:55 The beacon of freedom has been turned off

1:12:25 Ben's hammock studio

1:14:15 Administration is targeting people the public doesn't care much about

1:16:05 The goal is to stop it from getting worse

1:18:03 Showdown with SCOTUS looming?

1:19:30 Chuck’s Nats rant - Fix the bullpen!

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Chuck Todd takes a deep dive into the JFK assassination conspiracy and the latest document release with Jeff Morley, founder of JFK Facts.

He opens the episode by exploring how the government’s lack of transparency and honesty has fueled public distrust—and why that environment often breeds conspiratorial thinking.

Chuck and Jeff then examine the government's decades-long effort to keep a tight lid on records related to President John F. Kennedy’s assassination, and how skepticism from high-ranking officials at the time continues to cast doubt on the CIA’s official account.

They break down the most recent document releases, discuss why both Presidents Donald Trump and Joe Biden delayed their full release, and analyze what the timing and redactions might suggest about what the government could still be hiding.

The conversation takes a closer look at Lee Harvey Oswald, his potential ties to the CIA, and why the agency has remained evasive about those connections.

Finally, they review the key findings from the newly released documents, assess whether any revelations have truly been groundbreaking, and preview what might come next in the ongoing evolution of this historic conspiracy theory.

Like and subscribe to The Chuck ToddCast!

Timeline:

0:00 Introduction

02:00 What led to massive distrust of the U.S. government

04:00 Chuck’s big questions about the JFK assassination

8:40 How did Jeff Morley become JFKfacts?

10:10 Oliver Stone’s movie led to congress passing the JFK records act in 1992

11:40 Released CIA records were a reporting gold mine

14:55 Until the internet, the government kept a closed fist on the records

15:55 Oswald denied the killing, case was never adjudicated

19:10 Chuck welcoming his son to the conspiracy

21:50 The books that informed Jeff’s thinking on the assassination

24:45 Bobby Kennedy never believed the official story

25:55 How did Oswald not end up in jail after going to Russia?

28:45 Oswald was a known quantity to CIA officials before the assassination

29:55 Robert Kennedy asked the CIA director directly about CIA involvement

32:10 CIA’s fear was their awful operations being brought to light

33:40 Lyndon Johnson didn’t believe the Warren commission

34:50 Why did the CIA cover up its affiliation with Oswald?

35:40 What did Trump hold off on releasing?

37:30 Trump and Biden both punted on releasing files

40:40 Trump got back on board after RFK Jr. joined the campaign

43:10 The timeline for redactions shows what the government prioritized protecting

45:10 Hoover sanctioned FBI agents for their handling of Oswald

45:55 Why did the FBI + CIA remove Oswald from the watch list?

47:40 Oswald clearly was a CIA asset

48:40 Oswald did 5 things that should have landed him in trouble

49:55 Oswald goes public with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee

51:50 4 people confronting Oswald in the courtroom had CIA connections

54:20 Bay of Pigs is the root of Cuban-American support for Republicans

59:00 Did we learn anything from old Soviet files?

1:01:00 Soviets surveilled Oswald while he was in Minsk

1:03:45 Tulsi Gabbard implied new files had been found

1:05:30 CIA hasn’t produced new records that aren’t at the national archives

1:06:00 What are we missing on Jack Ruby?

1:08:10 CIA motivations for cover up?

1:10:15 What if Oswald did it and was part of a conspiracy?

1:10:40 There’s no smoking gun proof Oswald did it?

1:11:10 Compelling evidence that shots came from in front of Kennedy

1:13:10 Investigators botched the chain of possession for evidence

1:17:25 Jeff’s experience testifying in front of congress

1:18:55 Trump’s motive for declassifying the records

1:21:40 Where to find Jeff’s work

1:23:10 The CIA was a rogue agency in the 50s

1:24:55 Chuck’s closing thoughts

Chuck Todd is joined by geopolitical expert and Eurasia Group founder Ian Bremmer to unpack the global implications of President Donald Trump’s efforts to reshape the international order.

Chuck opens the episode by examining how Trump’s use of tariffs and his zero-sum approach to foreign policy are dismantling decades of established U.S. trade and diplomatic norms.

Ian then joins the conversation to assess the ripple effects of Trump’s tariffs on global trade, how key U.S. allies and rivals are likely to respond, and whether China stands to benefit in the long run.

He explains how Trump’s policies may be inadvertently strengthening Xi Jinping, why the U.S. is ill-equipped to operate in a “law of the jungle” environment, and what kind of economic damage could be on the horizon.

The discussion turns to the rise of anti-American sentiment abroad, the erosion of the rule of law at home, and why the economic fallout may disproportionately affect red states.

They then take a global tour of hotspots: debating the prospects for a renewed nuclear deal with Iran, whether Turkey has fully slipped into autocracy, and the likelihood of a Russia-Ukraine ceasefire in 2025.

To wrap up the episode, Chuck answers listener questions in the "Ask Chuck" segment.

Timeline

0:00 Introduction

1:00 Trump is creating a new world order

2:00 Trump has a zero-sum view of foreign policy

4:00 Could Trump break with Putin over lack of ceasefire?

6:00 Trump 2.0 and Trump 1.0 are completely different

9:00 Ian Bremmer joins the show

10:00 Has Trump broken the world economic order, or temporarily disrupted it?

11:15 Countries will begin to de-risk away from the US

13:30 Trump using emergency powers to unilaterally break international agreements

18:00 China will become dominant in the old architecture built by the U.S.

21:15 People voting for a second “Trump 1.0” and are getting something vastly different

22:30 Instability will force unity on the EU

23:30 Americans don’t understand how good we have it*

24:30 The future of power seems to lie with the autocracies and not the democracies

25:30 Is Trump throwing a lifeline to Xi Jinping?

29:30 The U.S. doesn’t have the right political system to operate in the “law of the jungle”

32:00 China’s surveillance state will check any type of middle class uprising

34:30 How different would things look if we had the TPP?

38:00 How should companies navigate the uncertainty Trump is creating?

39:30 Products from China are already becoming unavailable

41:00 Companies are all lobbying for exemptions

42:00 The hit to the US economy is going to be massive

44:20 The rise of anti-American sentiment

45:45 The first amendment only applies to citizens now?

46:45 The hit to American tourism will be substantial

48:00 Economic damage will hit red states the hardest

49:30 Mexican government has been willing to cooperate

51:45 Trump wants to cut a deal with Iran, even if it makes Israel unhappy

54:20 Will Erdogan get away with smashing democracy in Turkey?

56:15 What to make of the political turmoil in South Korea?

58:00 Will Bolsanaro/Le Pen have their charges stick, or could they win office in the future?

1:00:30 Biggest risks to the world? Is Trump at the top of that list?

1:02:30 Will the Ukraine/Russia war achieve a ceasefire this year?

1:06:20 Ask Chuck

1:06:40 What books do you assign your class to best understand this political moment?

1:12:00 Are we in a competitive autocracy similar to Erdogan’s Turkey?

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