Chuck Todd speaks with legendary documentary filmmaker Alex Gibney about his newest project The Dark Money Game on HBO and the influence of legalized bribery in American politics.

First, Chuck gives his own thoughts on the corrupting influence of money in politics, why Donald Trump’s memecoin is a bribery scheme in plain sight and why money has fueled distrust in politics from both sides of the aisle

Then, Chuck and Alex dive into the Ohio scandal at the center of The Dark Money Game, exploring why Americans have grown numb to the Citizens United ruling—and how it effectively legalized bribery in politics. They discuss how money has become a deeply corrosive force in American democracy.

Alex shares his process for selecting the story, what he uncovered during his investigation, and why the project ultimately became a two-part series.

The conversation also touches on the troubling alliance between organized religion and dark money, the Trump administration’s open embrace of corruption, and, finally, Alex reveals the focus of his next big project: Elon Musk.

Finally, Chuck answers a listener question in the Ask Chuck segment!

0:00 Introduction

1:00 Citizen's United created the dark money era

1:45 Reform efforts have failed

3:00 Campaigns used to cost millions, not billions

5:00 Money has cut voters out of the equation

9:00 Trump’s memecoin is a bribery scam in plain sight

10:30 We need strong disclosure laws

13:00 Public funding of elections is an all or nothing propositionv

14:30 Distrust in politics centers on money in the system

17:40 Alex Gibney joins the show!

18:40 Dark Money is the best attempt at telling the story of money corrupting politics

19:40 How hard is it to make this story accessible to the public?

20:40 Campaign finance should be rebranded as bribery

21:40 Ohio state legislature captured by special interests

24:10 Why did First Energy execs not end up in prison?

25:25 Huge money ensured GOP candidates in Ohio won, then were beholden

26:40 The bribe was a good investment

28:10 How did Alex access the wiretaps?

28:55 Investigators stumbled into the case

30:55 We've accepted money in politics and are numb to it

31:40 Citizens United opened the floodgates to corruption via PACs

33:40 Bribery is now legal

35:25 We're in a kleptocracy now

35:55 Reed Hoffman donated millions to Harris and wanted Lina Khan fired at FTC

37:40 Big money interests can just buy their own news coverage

40:10 Ohio whistleblower turned in his friend in service to his state

41:10 Florida gambling initiatives bought and sold petition signatures

42:40 Money in politics is like the mob bribing cops

45:10 Candidates don't run on an anti corruption/campaign finance platform

46:40 Billionaires shouldn't get define the world for the rest of us

47:55 Bernie/AOC turning out huge crowds tapping into anger against a rigged system

49:40 Dark money started as one film and became two because there was too much material 50:55 Evangelical grifters became fused with dark money in exchange for political influence 53:55 Corrupt Religious leaders "bless" political corruption to their followers

55:40 Society is driven by, and consumed by money

56:40 Law firms and universities have capitulated to Trump over their financial interests

59:10 Alex's advice for young documentarians

1:00:40 Lobbying is now corporation vs corporation

1:03:25 Elon Musk is Alex's next topic

1:04:25 Chuck's thoughts on conversation with Alex Gibney

1:05:25 Ask Chuck - How can voters in states with later primaries feel involved in choosing presidential candidates?

1:06:55 A rotating system for primaries based on region is a potential solution

1:09:55 There are ways to make the system fair, but the people in charge don't want a fair system.

1:12:55 Voters in early states take the process very seriously