In this episode, Howard Ross draws on four decades of DEI experience to offer wisdom in today's polarized climate. Howard, who brought me into the DEI field years ago, discusses how today's backlash fits into historical patterns and provides strategic guidance for practitioners navigating political headwinds.

Key Discussion Points:

- The shift from a "bell curve society" to a "dumbbell curve society"

- Distinguishing between performative, symbolic, and transformational DEI work

- Why activism and organizational change require different skillsets

- Strategic approaches to continuing inclusion work in challenging environments

- Finding hope in historical patterns of social progress

- Seeing humanity across political divides

🔥 Standout Quote:

"We've gone from a Bell curve society where most people are kind of in the middle... to a dumbbell curve society where everything's on the end and nothing's in the middle. And the notion of working with somebody across the aisle is considered pretty much by both sides to be betrayal." - Howard Ross

About Our Guest:

Howard Ross is a lifelong social justice advocate and pioneer in the field of DEI work. As founder of Cook Ross and author of influential books including "Everyday Bias," "ReInventing Diversity," and "Our Search for Belonging," Howard has consulted with hundreds of organizations worldwide. At 74, he describes himself as "rewired not retired" and continues to be an influential voice in the field. Howard is currently working on a third edition of "Everyday Bias" with his son Jake, focusing on how AI and social media are influenced by bias.

Resources Mentioned:

Everyday Bias by Howard Ross

IDEAS Generation - An organization for younger DEI practitioners co-founded by Dan Egol, a former Cook Ross employee.

The Fire Next Time by James Baldwin - Mentioned by Howard as a transformative book that changed his worldview when he read it in 1966.

Time Stamps:

[00:04:00] - Howard's background in civil rights work and how his family's Holocaust experience shaped him

[00:08:30] - The concept of "dumbbell curve society" and its impact on DEI work

[00:11:45] - The dual nature of DEI backlash: legitimate critique and politically motivated attacks

[00:13:50] - The three levels of DEI work: cosmetic, performative, and symbolic

[00:15:30] - The critical difference between activism and organizational change

[00:33:00] - Thinking strategically versus emotionally about DEI work

[00:39:00] - Finding hope in the historical patterns of progress and retrenchment

[00:44:00] - The importance of seeing humanity in those with different political views

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In this episode, host Amri Johnson challenges us to examine how we put ourselves and others into boxes—especially in the context of identity and inclusion within DEI work. Amri explores the shortcomings of both extreme pro-DEI and anti-DEI positions, revealing how both ends of the spectrum ultimately restrict true inclusion.

Key Discussion Points:

- Three types of boxes that shape our identities

- Why binary thinking in DEI work leads to ineffective outcomes

- The "anti-racist" versus "not racist" framework

- How today's anti-DEI backlash mirrors the problematic dynamics of extreme DEI approaches from 2020

- Creating organizational cultures based on universal principles like dignity, respect, and interdependence

- Why intellectual honesty matters more than superficial niceness

🔥 Standout Quotes:

"Many home runs in the DEI space, in the anti-racist space, in the social justice space that were hit since 2020 did not win games. In fact, they're creating the opposite effect where others are trying to win a similar game in a very different direction."

Resources Mentioned:

- Reconstructing Inclusion S1E6: What is Race Abolition?: Illuminating Racialization’s Complexity with Dr. Subrena Smith and Dr. David Livingstone Smith

"Stamped: Racism, Antiracism, and You" - Book co-authored by Jason Reynolds and Ibram X. Kendi that explores the history of racist ideas in America.

Peter Senge's Definition of Leadership - "Leadership is the capacity for a human community to shape its future."

Join our free EMERGENT Inclusion Framework virtual event. This isn't another discussion about group identities, allyship, and injustice. While those things have their place, the focus on symptoms rather than diving into the complexity of systems have not unlocked organizational value as practitioners and supporters have hoped for them to. Whether you're a skeptic or champion, your voice matters in this conversation.

Time Stamps:

01:00 - The concept of boxes in identity and inclusion

02:00 - The three types of boxes that define our identity

04:00 - How the dynamics between DEI proponents and opponents mirror each other

06:30 - The baseball analogy: anti-racist vs. not racist

08:30 - Strategic approaches to inclusion vs. binary thinking

10:50 - The current political climate and its impact on DEI

13:30 - Self-censoring across different contexts

15:00 - Creating organizational culture beyond superficial niceness

17:10 - The danger of overcorrection in DEI discourse

18:00 - Final reflections on transcending boxes

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of DEI.

In this episode, Fred Falker challenges everything we think we know about DEI. Using the famous nine-dot puzzle as a metaphor, Fred explains why our current approach to inclusion might be holding us back – and offers a revolutionary new way forward.

Key Discussion Points:

- The nine-dot puzzle and invisible limitations

- Difference vs. Distance paradigm

- Why nature doesn't draw lines?

- The problem with current DEI approaches

- Moving beyond categories to connection

- Measuring real impact in DEI work

🔥 Standout Quote:

"The drawing of the line is what divides. And when we divide, it brings in appraisal and judgment. It brings in the idea that something could be less than or more than. All of our bias is created by drawing lines." - Fred

About Our Guest:

Fred Falker is the President of Falker Consulting Group, Inc., an organizational development consulting and training firm. Over the past twenty-five years, he has developed and introduced a fundamentally new and better approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion. This approach goes beyond today's anti-racism and unconscious/implicit bias training.

Resources Mentioned:

- Falker Consulting Group

- From Difference to Distance: Rethinking Diversity and Inclusion | Fred Falker | TEDxClayton

- Ralph Ellison's "Invisible Man"

- Dr. Robert L. Williams - Founder of Black Psychology

Time Stamps:

[00:01:00] - Introduction to Fred Falker and his unique perspective on DEI

[00:07:00] - Why Fred initially refused to do diversity training [00:15:00] - The fundamental flaw in how we think about differences

[00:19:00] - "Nature does not draw lines" – Understanding constructed divisions

[00:34:00] - Why understanding groups doesn't mean understanding individuals

[00:37:00] - The distance paradigm: What really separates us? [00:49:00] - Why we need to focus on outcomes, not activities?[00:54:00] - The importance of abandoning old paradigms completely

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of DEI.

Reconstructing Inclusion with Amri B. Johnson

Season 2, Episode 6: Moving Beyond the DEI (and Anti-DEI) Bandwagon in 2025

📝 Episode Description:

In this episode, Amri explores why traditional DEI approaches are failing organizations and introduces the Emergent Inclusion Framework - a new paradigm for creating sustainable, inclusive cultures. Learn how to move beyond bandwagon solutions and build organizations that generate "thick value" and thrive through change.

⏱️ Time Stamps:

[00:00:00] - Introduction and context of DEI's evolution since 2021

[00:01:00] - The transition of DEI consultants and practitioners

[00:02:00] - Understanding historical challenges in DEI

[00:03:00] - The bandwagon effect explained

[00:05:00] - Introduction to "thick value" concept

[00:07:00] - The Emergent Inclusion Framework explained

[00:09:00] - Relational fitness and organizational change

[00:11:00] - Building trust through transparency

[00:12:00] - New initiatives and resources announcement

[00:13:00] - Special announcement about upcoming project

🔑 Key Concepts Discussed:

- The bandwagon effect in DEI initiatives

- Thick value and its role in organizational culture

- Anti-fragility in organizational development

- Relational fitness

- The Emergent Inclusion Framework

- Building trust through transparency

- Future-fit organizations

📚 Resources Mentioned:

Book: "Reconstructing Inclusion" by Amri B. Johnson

Book: "Diversity and Complexity" by Scott E. Page

Systemic Inclusion Survey™ - A free diagnostic tool to assess your organization's current inclusion practices and identify areas for improvement.

>> Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion on Substack here

In this explosive episode, former legal compliance expert turned DEI strategist Ashanti Bentil-Dhue drops truth bombs about the uncomfortable reality of DEI practice. She reveals why lived experience isn't enough, challenges the notion of "social justice in the workplace," and explains why the $30 billion DEI industry needs serious reform.

Key Discussion Points:

- Why 90% of self-taught DEI practitioners are a red flag

- The controversial truth about "lived experience" as qualification

- Why charging more for being Black is undermining the profession

- The problem with "changing hearts and minds"

- What health & safety regulations can teach us about DEI's future

- The 13 core competencies every DEI professional needs

🔥 Standout Quote:

"If you're saying I, me, my when you're consulting, advising, training, then you're not leading with neutrality." - Ashanti

About Our Guest:

Ashanti Bentil-Dhue is the founder of the Competence Centre for Workplace Equity. With a background in legal and financial compliance, she's leading the charge for professional standards in DEI practice.

Resources Mentioned:

- The Competence Centre for Workplace Equity

- "Be Your Future Self Now" by Dr. Benjamin Hardy

Time Stamps:

04:00 - Ashanti's background in compliance

12:00 - The competency crisis in DEI

15:45 - Debunking 'lived experience'

24:30 - Future of DEI regulation

33:20 - Ethical pricing in DEI

37:00 - Business transformation vs social justice

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of DEI.

In this episode of the Reconstructing Inclusion Podcast, host Amri Johnson interviews Dr. Darryl Stickel, a leading expert on trust. Dr. Stickel discusses how modern relationships have become shallow due to social media, emphasizing the importance of building deeper connections. He explores trust in organizational contexts, highlighting the role of vulnerability in leadership and team dynamics.

Timestamps

01:58 Personal Inspirations and Overcoming Challenges

03:28 The Importance of Trust in Relationships

10:59 Building Trust in Teams and Organizations

18:35 Navigating Trust in an Uncertain World

19:29 The Impact of Low Trust in Society

22:49 Building and Maintaining Trust in Modern Times

25:28 The Importance of Benevolence in Trust

28:01 Parenting and Integrity: Lessons from Fatherhood

30:30 Living with Visual Impairment: A Journey of Trust

31:59 The Strength in Vulnerability

Highlights

- Discussion of how social media has led to "mile wide, inch deep" relationships

- The importance of leaders showing vulnerability to build trust

- Trust as a combination of uncertainty and vulnerability

- The three key levers for building trust: benevolence, integrity, and ability

- How asking for help can actually strengthen relationships and trust

Resources

Book: "Building Trust: Exceptional Leadership in an Uncertain World" by Dr. Darryl Stickel

Website: trustunlimited.com | email: darryl@trustunlimited.com

About the Guest

Darryl is one of the world’s leading experts on trust. He helps high-level and executive leaders cultivate true growth and productivity in their businesses through an action-based practice of modeling vulnerability in order to improve communication and employee investment in their business. Darryl teaches leaders how to find and use their most powerful tool that is always in their control: how to effectively build trust in their relationships.

About the Host

As CEO/Founder of Inclusion Wins, Amri B. Johnson and a virtual collective of partners converge organizational purpose to create global impact with a lens of inclusion.

His theory of change is focused on building ‘Inclusion Systems.’ Inclusion systems provide direction and momentum in the complexity of organizations that allow them to be antifragile—leaning into and engaging with resistance, stressors, disruptions, and disequilibrium and being stronger as a result of such engagement.

His book, Reconstructing Inclusion: Making DEI Accessible, Actionable, and Sustainable outlines how organizations can create inclusion-normative cultures and build approaches to DEI that are designed for and with everyone, unambiguously prioritized, and purpose aligned.

Born in Topeka, Kansas (USA), Amri has worked and lived in the U.S., Brazil, and currently lives in Basel, Switzerland, with his wife Martina and their three kids.

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Imagine a workplace where every employee, regardless of their differences, is set up to thrive. A place where managers are charged not just with hitting targets, but with creating an environment where even those they clash with can excel. Sound like a fantasy? It's not.

This is the reality of what I call an "inclusion system," and it's the key to transforming your organization from a fragile puddle into a mighty, enduring river. Let me share a story that illustrates this powerful approach...

In a world where businesses often prioritize profit over people, Arie de Geus's book "The Living Company" offers a refreshing perspective on organizational success.

As a DEI strategist, I find his concept of "puddle companies" versus "river companies" particularly illuminating. Puddle companies, focused on short-term gains, are shallow and stagnant, eventually drying up under pressure. River companies, on the other hand, are dynamic, life-giving entities that endure through constant flow and adaptation.

The book's anecdote about creating conditions for success, even with challenging team dynamics, resonates deeply with the practice of inclusion.

As DEI practitioners, our role is to help organizations evolve into "river companies" by implementing inclusion systems. This means moving beyond short-term fixes and creating normative practices that allow for connection through tension, leveraging differences and similarities to achieve organizational purpose. It's about building a culture where managers at all levels understand their responsibility to create conditions for success across the entire human community within the organization.

Are you ready to transform your organization from a puddle into a river?

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I hope this was helpful. . . Make it a great day! ✌🏿

In this episode of the ‘Reconstructing Inclusion’ podcast, let’s revisit ten insightful questions from past podcast appearances. Let’s talk about shifting away from identity-centered approaches to foster an inclusive environment for all, and the importance of evidence-based and principle-centered approaches that are accessible to everyone and aligned with organizational goals.