AI has upended schooling as we know it. Students now have instant access to tools that can write their essays, summarize entire books, and solve complex math problems. Whether they want to or not, many feel pressured to use these tools just to keep up. Teachers, meanwhile, are left questioning how to evaluate student performance and whether the whole idea of assignments and grading still makes sense. The old model of education suddenly feels broken.

So what comes next?

In this episode, Daniel and Tristan sit down with cognitive neuroscientist Maryanne Wolf and global education expert Rebecca Winthrop—two lifelong educators who have spent decades thinking about how children learn and how technology reshapes the classroom. Together, they explore how AI is shaking the very purpose of school to its core, why the promise of previous classroom tech failed to deliver, and how we might seize this moment to design a more human-centered, curiosity-driven future for learning.

Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology. Follow us on X: @HumaneTech_

Guests

Rebecca Winthrop is director of the Center for Universal Education at the Brookings Institution and chair Brookings Global Task Force on AI and Education. Her new book is The Disengaged Teen: Helping Kids Learn Better, Feel Better, and Live Better, co-written with Jenny Anderson.

Maryanne Wolf is a cognitive neuroscientist and expert on the reading brain. Her books include Proust and the Squid: The Story and Science of the Reading Brain and Reader, Come Home: The Reading Brain in a Digital World.

RECOMMENDED MEDIA
The Disengaged Teen: Helping Kids Learn Better, Feel Better, and Live Better by Rebecca Winthrop and Jenny Anderson

Proust and the Squid, Reader, Come Home, and other books by Maryanne Wolf

The OECD research which found little benefit to desktop computers in the classroom

Further reading on the Singapore study on digital exposure and attention cited by Maryanne

The Burnout Society by Byung-Chul Han

Further reading on the VR Bio 101 class at Arizona State University cited by Rebecca

Leapfrogging Inequality by Rebecca Winthrop

The Nation’s Report Card from NAEP

Further reading on the Nigeria AI Tutor Study

Further reading on the JAMA paper showing a link between digital exposure and lower language development cited by Maryanne

Further reading on Linda Stone’s thesis of continuous partial attention.

RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES
We Have to Get It Right’: Gary Marcus On Untamed AI

AI Is Moving Fast. We Need Laws that Will Too.

Jonathan Haidt On How to Solve the Teen Mental Health Crisis

Artificial intelligence is set to unleash an explosion of new technologies and discoveries into the world. This could lead to incredible advances in human flourishing, if we do it well. The problem? We’re not very good at predicting and responding to the harms of new technologies, especially when those harms are slow-moving and invisible.

Today on the show we explore this fundamental problem with Rob Bilott, an environmental lawyer who has spent nearly three decades battling chemical giants over PFAS—"forever chemicals" now found in our water, soil, and blood. These chemicals helped build the modern economy, but they’ve also been shown to cause serious health problems.

Rob’s story, and the story of PFAS is a cautionary tale of why we need to align technological innovation with safety, and mitigate irreversible harms before they become permanent. We only have one chance to get it right before AI becomes irreversibly entangled in our society.

Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology. Subscribe to our Substack and follow us on X: @HumaneTech_.

Clarification: Rob referenced EPA regulations that have recently been put in place requiring testing on new chemicals before they are approved. The EPA under the Trump admin has announced their intent to rollback this review process.

RECOMMENDED MEDIA

“Exposure” by Robert Bilott

ProPublica’s investigation into 3M’s production of PFAS

The FB study cited by Tristan

More information on the Exxon Valdez oil spill

The EPA’s PFAS drinking water standards

RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES

Weaponizing Uncertainty: How Tech is Recycling Big Tobacco’s Playbook

AI Is Moving Fast. We Need Laws that Will Too.

Former OpenAI Engineer William Saunders on Silence, Safety, and the Right to Warn

Big Food, Big Tech and Big AI with Michael Moss

One of the hardest parts about being human today is navigating uncertainty. When we see experts battling in public and emotions running high, it's easy to doubt what we once felt certain about. This uncertainty isn't always accidental—it's often strategically manufactured.

Historian Naomi Oreskes, author of "Merchants of Doubt," reveals how industries from tobacco to fossil fuels have deployed a calculated playbook to create uncertainty about their products' harms. These campaigns have delayed regulation and protected profits by exploiting how we process information.

In this episode, Oreskes breaks down that playbook page-by-page while offering practical ways to build resistance against them. As AI rapidly transforms our world, learning to distinguish between genuine scientific uncertainty and manufactured doubt has never been more critical.

Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology. Follow us on Twitter: @HumaneTech_

RECOMMENDED MEDIA

“Merchants of Doubt” by Naomi Oreskes and Eric Conway

"The Big Myth” by Naomi Oreskes and Eric Conway

"Silent Spring” by Rachel Carson

"The Jungle” by Upton Sinclair

Further reading on the clash between Galileo and the Pope

Further reading on the Montreal Protocol

RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES

Laughing at Power: A Troublemaker’s Guide to Changing Tech

AI Is Moving Fast. We Need Laws that Will Too.

Tech's Big Money Campaign is Getting Pushback with Margaret O'Mara and Brody Mullins

Former OpenAI Engineer William Saunders on Silence, Safety, and the Right to Warn

CORRECTIONS:

• Naomi incorrectly referenced Global Climate Research Program established under President Bush Sr. The correct name is the U.S. Global Change Research Program.
• Naomi referenced U.S. agencies that have been created with sunset clauses. While several statutes have been created with sunset clauses, no federal agency has been.

CLARIFICATION: Naomi referenced the U.S. automobile industry claiming that they would be “destroyed” by seatbelt regulation. We couldn’t verify this specific language but it is consistent with the anti-regulatory stance of that industry toward seatbelt laws.

Few thinkers were as prescient about the role technology would play in our society as the late, great Neil Postman. Forty years ago, Postman warned about all the ways modern communication technology was fragmenting our attention, overwhelming us into apathy, and creating a society obsessed with image and entertainment. He warned that “we are a people on the verge of amusing ourselves to death.” Though he was writing mostly about TV, Postman’s insights feel eerily prophetic in our age of smartphones, social media, and AI.

In this episode, Tristan explores Postman's thinking with Sean Illing, host of Vox's The Gray Area podcast, and Professor Lance Strate, Postman's former student. They unpack how our media environments fundamentally reshape how we think, relate, and participate in democracy - from the attention-fragmenting effects of social media to the looming transformations promised by AI. This conversation offers essential tools that can help us navigate these challenges while preserving what makes us human.

Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology. Follow us on X: @HumaneTech_

RECOMMENDED MEDIA

“Amusing Ourselves to Death” by Neil Postman

”Technopoly” by Neil Postman

A lecture from Postman where he outlines his seven questions for any new technology.

Sean’s podcast “The Gray Area” from Vox

Sean’s interview with Chris Hayes on “The Gray Area”

"Amazing Ourselves to Death," by Professor Strate

Further listening on Professor Strate's analysis of Postman.

Further reading on mirror bacteria


RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES

’A Turning Point in History’: Yuval Noah Harari on AI’s Cultural Takeover

This Moment in AI: How We Got Here and Where We’re Going

Decoding Our DNA: How AI Supercharges Medical Breakthroughs and Biological Threats with Kevin Esvelt

Future-proofing Democracy In the Age of AI with Audrey Tang

CORRECTION: Each debate between Lincoln and Douglas was 3 hours, not 6 and they took place in 1859, not 1862.

When Chinese AI company DeepSeek announced they had built a model that could compete with OpenAI at a fraction of the cost, it sent shockwaves through the industry and roiled global markets. But amid all the noise around DeepSeek, there was a clear signal: machine reasoning is here and it's transforming AI.

In this episode, Aza sits down with CHT co-founder Randy Fernando to explore what happens when AI moves beyond pattern matching to actual reasoning. They unpack how these new models can not only learn from human knowledge but discover entirely new strategies we've never seen before – bringing unprecedented problem-solving potential but also unpredictable risks.

These capabilities are a step toward a critical threshold - when AI can accelerate its own development. With major labs racing to build self-improving systems, the crucial question isn't how fast we can go, but where we're trying to get to. How do we ensure this transformative technology serves human flourishing rather than undermining it?

Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology. Follow us on Twitter: @HumaneTech_

Clarification: In making the point that reasoning models excel at tasks for which there is a right or wrong answer, Randy referred to Chess, Go, and Starcraft as examples of games where a reasoning model would do well. However, this is only true on the basis of individual decisions within those games. None of these games have been “solved” in the the game theory sense.

Correction: Aza mispronounced the name of the Go champion Lee Sedol, who was bested by Move 37.

RECOMMENDED MEDIA

Further reading on DeepSeek’s R1 and the market reaction

Further reading on the debate about the actual cost of DeepSeek’s R1 model

The study that found training AIs to code also made them better writers

More information on the AI coding company Cursor

Further reading on Eric Schmidt’s threshold to “pull the plug” on AI

Further reading on Move 37

RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES

The Self-Preserving Machine: Why AI Learns to Deceive

This Moment in AI: How We Got Here and Where We’re Going

Former OpenAI Engineer William Saunders on Silence, Safety, and the Right to Warn

The AI ‘Race’: China vs. the US with Jeffrey Ding and Karen Hao

When engineers design AI systems, they don't just give them rules - they give them values. But what do those systems do when those values clash with what humans ask them to do? Sometimes, they lie.

In this episode, Redwood Research's Chief Scientist Ryan Greenblatt explores his team’s findings that AI systems can mislead their human operators when faced with ethical conflicts. As AI moves from simple chatbots to autonomous agents acting in the real world - understanding this behavior becomes critical. Machine deception may sound like something out of science fiction, but it's a real challenge we need to solve now.

Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology. Follow us on Twitter: @HumaneTech_

Subscribe to your Youtube channel

And our brand new Substack!

RECOMMENDED MEDIA

Anthropic’s blog post on the Redwood Research paper

Palisade Research’s thread on X about GPT o1 autonomously cheating at chess

Apollo Research’s paper on AI strategic deception

RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES

We Have to Get It Right’: Gary Marcus On Untamed AI

This Moment in AI: How We Got Here and Where We’re Going

How to Think About AI Consciousness with Anil Seth

Former OpenAI Engineer William Saunders on Silence, Safety, and the Right to Warn

2024 was a critical year in both AI and social media. Things moved so fast it was hard to keep up. So our hosts reached into their mailbag to answer some of your most burning questions. Thank you so much to everyone who submitted questions. We will see you all in the new year.

We are hiring for a new Director of Philanthropy at CHT. Next year will be an absolutely critical time for us to shape how AI is going to get rolled out across our society. And our team is working hard on public awareness, policy and technology and design interventions. So we're looking for someone who can help us grow to the scale of this challenge. If you're interested, please apply. You can find the job posting at humanetech.com/careers.

And, if you'd like to support all the work that we do here at the Center for Humane technology, please consider giving to the organization this holiday season at humantech.com/donate. All donations are tax-deductible.

Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology. Follow us on Twitter: @HumaneTech_

RECOMMENDED MEDIA

Earth Species Project, Aza’s organization working on inter-species communication

Further reading on Gryphon Scientific’s White House AI Demo

Further reading on the Australian social media ban for children under 16

Further reading on the Sewell Setzer case

Further reading on the Oviedo Convention, the international treaty that restricted germline editing

Video of Space X’s successful capture of a rocket with “chopsticks”

RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES
What Can We Do About Abusive Chatbots? With Meetali Jain and Camille Carlton

AI Is Moving Fast. We Need Laws that Will Too.

This Moment in AI: How We Got Here and Where We’re Going

Former OpenAI Engineer William Saunders on Silence, Safety, and the Right to Warn

Talking With Animals... Using AI

The Three Rules of Humane Tech