Holly talks w/Dr. Carl Erik Fisher, addiction psychiatrist and author of The Urge, about the intersection of narcissism and addiction in our current cultural moment, and the paradox of how recovery culture itself can create new forms of self-obsession and addiction.

Key themes discussed: Living through institutional collapse and staying grounded; Anna Lembke's theory that endemic narcissism drives peak addiction; distinguishing between grandiose vs vulnerable narcissism and trait vs process narcissism; how 12-step programs were designed to deflate powerful men's egos but modern recovery often demands constant self-optimization; the difference between false refuges (money, power, status) and true refuges (community, spiritual connection, service); "ontological addiction" as attachment to fixed self-concepts; Carl's forthcoming book on self-control thru various forms of losing control; the need for healthy narcissism vs toxic self-obsession; navigating recovery in era that demands constant self-performance.

Carl Erik Fisher is an addiction physician, bioethicist, person in recovery, and author of The Urge: Our History of Addiction, named one of the best books of the year by The New Yorker and The Boston Globe. His writing has appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, and elsewhere. An associate professor at Columbia University, he draws from his academic studies, clinical work, and personal experience to explore addiction, self-control, and flourishing at the Substack newsletter Rat Park.

Carl's Substack newsletter: Rat Park

Carl's book: The Urge: Our History of Addiction available at Bookshop.org

Carl's website: carlerikfisher.com

Carl's podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/flourishing-after-addiction-with-carl-erik-fisher/id1581713114

Original music by Gracie Coates of Gracie and Rachel @graciecoates @gracieandrachel on Instagram, gracieandrachel.com

Sound engineering, editor: Adam Day, adamdayphotography.com

Producer: Holly Whitaker, hollywhitaker.com

Co-Producers: Adam Day

Original art by Misha Handschumacher, cmisha.com

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