Episodes

  • 165: Charlie Copsey on bringing fans experiences that aren’t f*ing boring

    165: Charlie Copsey on bringing fans experiences that aren’t f*ing boring
    Jul 4 2025
    This week we tried to arrange a VIP brand event for Call To Action® fans in an abandoned toilet brush factory, all just to prove our cool credentials to Charlie Copsey, the founder of Underground Fan Club.

    Having conquered the media mountain earlier in her career – working in TV, radio and film with the likes of Johnny Vaughan and her good pal Colin Murray – Charlie realised that her next great mission would be to rescue fan experiences from the desperately dull doldrums they were in at the time. From there Underground Fan Club was born – a studio devoted to producing more memorable, more believable and more exciting experiences between brands, fans and talent. At the heart of the mission is something many marketers bang on about with no clue, or care, about what it means in reality – authentic connections with your most valuable audience, something Charlie is already proving to be much more than the same old brand baloney. There’s an increasingly long line of brands queuing up for the Underground treatment but luckily for your ears and brains, CTA is nothing if not a queue jumper.

    In an episode that’s all about fans, super-fans, stan-fans and ceiling fans (not that one) we learn what it takes for your brand to actually mean something more to the people you’re doing it all for.

    This episode is proudly dedicated to Colin Murray.

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    04:09 - Studying Drama at Loughborough
    10:12 - Working with Johnny Vaughan
    12:28 - The Evolution of Fighting Talk and Live Events
    16:38 - Identifying the Gap: Connecting Talent and Fans
    17:52 - Building Underground Fan Club: The First Event
    20:32 - The Importance of Authentic Experiences
    22:21 - Navigating Brand Partnerships
    26:13 - Finding the Right Brand Partners
    28:05 - Balancing Involvement in Events
    32:29 - The Challenges of Running a Business

    Charlie’s Book Recommendations are:

    Careless People - Sarah Wynn-Williams
    Shoe Dog – Phil Knight
    Losing my Virginity – Richard Branson

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    50 mins
  • 164: Jo Living on how poker can make you better at business

    164: Jo Living on how poker can make you better at business
    Jun 20 2025
    This week we kept shouting things like HIT ME! TWIST! GO FISH! WHAT’S A SPADE? In order to win the professional attention, and personal sympathy, of Jo Living – founder of ‘poker for business’ consultancy Aces High.

    Having noticed that poker was less about bluff and bravado and more about strategy, empathy and teamwork, Jo realised it could be the perfect game for teaching people how to make smarter business decisions. From there she went on to run workshops teaching everything from communication and negotiation, to assertiveness and risk management, all done eye-to-eye through what she calls the ‘contact’ sport of poker.

    It’s an episode where we try very hard not to say things about ‘laying the cards on the table’ (but probably won’t succeed) covering everything from the real-world value of a poker face to the power of a timely pause.

    This episode is proudly dedicated to Adam Living.

    Follow Jo on LinkedIn.

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    Timestamps

    07:33 - Investment Banking Experience
    10:32 - Quarter Life Crisis
    15:47 - The Poker Environment
    18:15 - Poker as a Game of Strategy
    19:50 - Women in Poker
    22:39 - Parallels Between Poker and Business
    26:02 - Skills Developed Through Poker
    29:02 - The Power of the Pause
    31:37 - Identifying Leadership Traits
    37:13 - Getting More Women at the Table
    39:12 - Subtle Tells for Leadership

    Jo’s Book Recommendations are:

    Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke

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    48 mins
  • 163: Karen Dobres on a game-changing approach to women’s football

    163: Karen Dobres on a game-changing approach to women’s football
    May 16 2025
    This week we donned a smelly neon bib, distributed some tiny cones and shouted things like ‘THAT’S NEVER A PEN’ all in order to win the attention of Karen Dobres, one of the sporting world’s most genuine game changers.

    Advocating for equal budgets, facilities and recognition in women’s sport with all the tenacity of a crunching, shin-pad obliterating tackle, Karen is the co-founder of Equality FC and the Sistership Network. Her new book, soon to hit the shops, is called Pitch Invasion and tells the tale of her experiences as a feminist on the board of Lewes FC, the world’s first (hurray) and only (boo) equal football club. And, with all the creative energy of a box-to-box midfield dynamo, she’s also helped establish the #CallHimOut initiative, has served as a judge on the UN Women UK Awards, managed a counselling service at Polygram Records and, just because she could, helped arrange the installation of a statue celebrating bisexual female pirates.

    It’s an episode where we chatter ‘in and around’ all things relating to her hopes for women’s sport, the impact of equality on crowds and culture and the value of being an outsider.

    This episode is proudly dedicated to Marios Christos Sfantos

    Follow Karen on LinkedIn.

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    Timestamps

    06:10 - From Journalism Aspirations to Modelling
    08:45 - Transitioning to Counselling and Music Industry
    12:40 - Discovering Women's Football
    15:31 - Feminizing the Football Environment at Lewis FC
    18:14 - Impact of Equality on Crowds and Culture
    24:48 - Challenges Faced by Women in Football
    27:25 - Creating a Supportive Community through Football
    30:37 - Football as a Vehicle for Social Change
    32:06 - The Value of Being an Outsider in Football
    34:15 - Pitch Invasion: Karen's Book

    Karen's Book Recommendations are:

    A Room of One's Own by Virginia Woolf
    Why Men Win at Work by Jill Whitty Collins

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    45 mins
  • 162: Howard Ibach on why better briefs breed better results.

    162: Howard Ibach on why better briefs breed better results.
    May 2 2025
    This week we kept on adding more and more and more irrelevant attachments to our so-called brief, in order to earn ourselves a swift rebuke from the marketing world’s Brief Batman – Howard Ibach.

    Inventor of the Creative Brief Mastery program, Howard is on a mission to make marketing briefs more meaningful. An advocate for clear thinking, proper collaboration and the single minded-proposition, Howard has been helping marketers all over the world put their bad briefing habits to bed (and then press a pillow over their drooling faces). He’s also an instructor at the Association of National Advertisers’ Marketing Training and Development Centre, the author of the brilliant ‘How To Write An Inspired Brief’ and host of the ‘Brief Bros’ podcast – confirming his undisputed status as the industry’s beefiest brief brain.

    In this episode, Howard will pick the art of briefing down to its rickety bones, sharing his invaluable expertise on what the perfect brief should say, be and do.

    This episode is proudly dedicated to Tom Jordan.

    Follow Howard on LinkedIn.

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    Timestamps

    03:45 - Lessons from Stonemasonry
    06:14 - Path to Writing and Advertising
    08:36 - The Influence of Advertising on Howard
    12:29 - The Importance of a Good Brief
    16:12 - Issues with Copying Client Briefs
    19:49 - The Disconnect Between Clients and Agencies
    24:24 - Collaboration in Brief Writing
    32:13 - Commonalities in Effective Briefs
    46:02 - Banishment of Purpose Advertising

    Howards Book Recommendations are:

    Chew with Your Mind Open by Cameron Day
    Spittin' Chiclets by Cameron Day
    Stones & Sticks by Cameron Day

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    54 mins
  • 161: Adam Ferrier on why listening to your customers can be bad for your brand

    161: Adam Ferrier on why listening to your customers can be bad for your brand
    Apr 18 2025
    This week we have been exclusively watching 'Magic Mike', shaking a Magic 8-Ball and listening to '24k Magic' by Bruno Mars (which is just awful) in order to win the slightly nervous attention of Adam Ferrier, founder of Thinkerbell; the thinkers, tinkers and practitioners of ‘measured magic’.

    A psychology brain sat on top of some sturdy strategy bones, Adam is a rare voice of reason in the largely barmy brand world – as well as being the chief sceptic when it comes to the industry obsession with ‘the customer’. He’s also the author of more superb books, including ‘The Advertising effect: How to Change Behaviour’ and supplements all this talk-talking with some serious walk-walking through his work that brings marketing science and creative thinking together.

    In this episode Adam shares his expertise on brands who forget how to be brands, why every business problem is a behaviour change problem and the forgotten benefits of simply fitting in.

    This episode is very proudly dedicated to Anne Young.

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    Follow Adam on LinkedIn

    Timestamps

    09:16 - The impact of D&AD annuals on Adam's career choice
    11:19 - Transition from forensic psychology to marketing
    16:12 - The perils of customer obsession
    22:57 - Balancing brand and customer needs
    25:11 - The importance of consumer research


    Adam’s Book Recommendations are:

    Stop Listening to Your Customers by Adam Ferrier:
    The Advertising Effect: How to Change Behaviour by Adam Ferrier:
    Love's Executioner and Other Tales of Psychotherapy by Irvin Yalom:
    Existential Psychotherapy by Irvin Yalom:
    Here and Now: Tales from the Heart by Irvin Yalom:

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    42 mins
  • 160: Shane Stewart on how to build brands with fizz

    160: Shane Stewart on how to build brands with fizz
    Mar 28 2025
    This week we went around slurping muddy water from puddles in order to win the sympathy of Shane Stewart – brand man, running man and fizzy drink saviour.

    Chief brand brain at XOXO soda, Shane has built his career around launching and marketing drinks that do good stuff for your innards, while looking extremely cool on your outtards. Before shaking up the canned drink business with XOXO he helped create a large and loyal community of slurpers for Moju, a ginger and turmeric shot that’s a bit like unleashing a troop of helpfully energetic monkeys inside your tired old brain. And, as well as bringing better branded bubbly beverages to Britain and beyond, he’s even found the time to launch Step by Steppers, a marvellous running club designed to help people dealing with grief to feel less alone.

    This episode is very proudly dedicated to his Dad.

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    Follow Shane on LinkedIn and Instagram
    Step by Steppers Run Club

    Timestamps

    03:14 - Shane's Early Career in Hospitality
    05:08 - Cultural Significance of Pubs in the UK
    07:29 - Importance of University Experience Over Degree Choice
    08:50 - Shane's Interest in Brands and Marketing
    10:57 - Shane's Time in Australia and Farm Work Experience
    13:04 - Transition from Hospitality to Marketing
    14:40 - Working at Northern Block Ice Cream
    16:05 - Joining Moju and Creative Job Application
    18:22 - Continuous Learning and Mini MBA
    20:19 - Transition to XOXO Soda
    23:37 - Challenges and Opportunities in the Functional Soda Market
    25:21 - Product Range and Flavor Development at XOXO
    29:27 - Psychological Aspects of Product Taste and Health Benefits
    31:12 - Listener Questions: Startups vs. Big Brands
    34:47 - Listener Questions: Convincing Retailers to Stock Products
    39:42 - Introduction to Step by Stepper Run Club


    Shane's Book Recommendation is:
    The Chimp Paradox - Prof Steve Peters

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    55 mins
  • 159: Alex Smith on the battle to make business strategy better

    159: Alex Smith on the battle to make business strategy better
    Mar 14 2025
    This week we positioned our most powerful fan at the rear end of a corpulent bull in hopes of snaring the attention of legendary bullshit fighter, Alex Smith

    A strategist who’s set himself the mountainous task of extracting all the nonsense from business strategy, Alex is very much a breath of a fresh air in a field that can, at its worst, smell a lot like somebody’s done a poo… on a dead crab… in the drains of an abandoned laundrette… and then set it on fire. He is the author of a bestselling book on strategy, titled, with Alex’s typical disregard for fluff, No Bullshit Strategy. In those pages – and through Alex’s wildly popular LinkedIn posts – he makes a compelling case for businesses to look more closely at the decisions they make and wheedle out the ‘anti-strategic’ ones that are causing 99% of all pickles. So, in true Alex fashion, we probably could have just said something like ‘he helps businesses get stuff right, more of the time’ instead of all that nonsense about the crab and the laundrette. Ah well.

    This episode is dedicated to Alex’s wife who is the engine and foundation underneath everything.

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    Follow Alex on LinkedIn.

    Timestamps:
    (03:26) -     First Jobs and Failures
    (06:19) -     Reflections on Being Fired
    (08:53) -     Finding the Right Fit
    (10:46) -     The Challenge of Entering Advertising
    (12:24) -     Polishing the Pig: Agency Work
    (15:36) -     The Importance of Unique Value
    (19:08) -     Theory vs. Practice in Strategy
    (20:26) -     Defining Business Strategy
    (22:03) -     Value Generation in Business
    (24:16) -     The Role of Communication
    (28:04) -     The Hierarchy of Business Strategy
    (30:28) -     The Role of Founders in Strategy
    (32:10) -     Navigating Corporate Structures
    (36:15) -     The Myth of the Legendary Founder
    (40:05) -     Mediocrity vs. Strategy
    (42:58) -     Learning from Established Brands
    (45:11) -     Applying Strategy to Personal Business
    (47:30) -     The Shift from Freelancer to Entrepreneur

    Alex's Book Recommendations are:
    Zero to One by Peter Thiel
    Incerto Series by Nassim Taleb
    Elon Musk by Walter Isaacson
    Steve Jobs by Walter Isaacson
    The Matter with Things by Ian McGilchrist

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    1 hr and 5 mins
  • 158: Paul Dervan on a marketing future that embraces mistakes and machines

    158: Paul Dervan on a marketing future that embraces mistakes and machines
    Feb 28 2025
    This week we released AI from the punishment cupboard in which we’ve been keeping it in order to win the approval of author, marketing super-brain and AI believer Paul Dervan.

    As the Head of Brand Marketing at Miro, Paul has been busy bolstering his reputation as one of the industry’s smartiest pant-wearers when it comes to marketing effectiveness. Miro is just the latest stop in a marketing career you could only possibly describe as both distinguished and glittering (glittinguished?) and has seen Paul tackle the marketing challenges on behalf of everyone from O2 to Telefonica to the National Lottery in Ireland (scooping, along the way, the title of Ireland’s Marketer of the Year in 2022.) He’s also the author of Run With The Foxes, a superb book about marketing, mistakes and making much better decisions.

    This episode is very proudly dedicated to Peter Field. Peter has had a huge influence on Paul’s career both as a mentor and advisor.

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    Follow Paul on LinkedIn.

    Timestamps:
    03:45 - First Job and Proper Job
    05:10 - Early Career in Marketing
    07:34 - Career Path and Focus
    09:30 - Paul's Sweet Spot in Marketing
    11:00 - Writing the Book: Run with Foxes
    13:27 - Learning from Mistakes
    15:51 - Mistakes and AI in Marketing
    18:08 - Decision-Making Process
    20:40 - Classical vs. Modern Marketing
    22:22 - AI's Impact on Marketing
    25:06 - Practical Applications of AI
    30:05 - Advanced Uses of AI
    33:08 - Synthetic Research
    34:28 - Skepticism vs. Cynicism
    36:42 - Curiosity and Experimentation
    39:27 - Admitting Mistakes
    43:27 - Listener Questions: Embedding Chapter One

    Paul's Book Recommendations are:
    Ogilvy on Advertising – David Ogilvy
    The Anatomy of Humbug – Paul Feldwick
    Decoded: The Science Behind Why We Buy – Phil Barden

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    56 mins